Women Judges

[Amira]

Al Salamo Alaikom

I guess we all heard that Egypt had certified & admitted "women judges" for a while now. My question is, what does Islam say about that?

I believe that the "women judges" issue contradicts the women testimony rule in Islam, because it requires 2 women to testify in a case for their testimony to be valid in Islam, so how can one single woman rule & judge life & death cases?

I think I heard that sheikhs said it's ok, but what does Shar3 say about that?

JAK

[Truth Knight]

"Some" scholars said it was OK to my knowledge. Those appointed by the government, duh. As far as I understand, a woman cannot be a judge for many reasons in Islam, mainly because the Islamic law is in short, the Holy Qur'an. If a woman can't even touch the Holy Qur'an for a week -give or take- every single month, how could she even refer to it when she needs to make a decision?

In addition, as you said my sister. 2 women are required to give a testimony in Islam. Modern science tells us that this is because the brain of men and women works differently. While the brain of a man is geared towards facts, the woman's brain is geared towards what she was created for, affection and emotion. Some people who don't know what they're talking about think this is degrading to women, while in fact, it's degrading to women to be anything but that.

I'm not intending to get into the "equality", "liberty" and "freedom" empty slogans at this point, but Allah (SWT) has created us ready for our tasks. A man's task is to use information and facts to be able to provide for his family and protect them, while a woman's task is to use emotion and passion to keep this family together. One without the other is useless, so no one's better in that regard. It's just how we're made.

So in short, my opinion -which has a huge tendency to be wrong till proven otherwise- is that women cannot be judges in an Islamic country. But then again, Egypt isn't exactly an Islamic country now, is it?

[Amatullah]

I didn't understand this when I first became a Muslim. I felt a bit defensive about some of the "differences" between man and women, even though I have never felt like complete equality between men and women was a logical goal. Now things like equality, liberty and freedom can't possibly ever be an issue for me. Since I am different, my roles are different and yes, even my skills and various apptitudes are different. I don't feel any sort of constraints or limitations on what I am "allowed" to do as a Muslim woman, because I am content to trust that Allah (SWT) has picked my role and my functions in the best ways for myself and the ummah.

That said, there is another reason why I feel like women need to take care and do what they are here for. It is better for the men. I have no doubt that many women could handle everything themselves in logical ways that are necessary to succeed in life. Many do. I think a woman judge could no doubt do as good of a job as a male judge, since many cases actually do involve some emotional consideration too. But 'can I' and 'should I' are two different approaches. This is not a competition. We should want to do what is good for our brother too. We dress modestly because it is better for men, as well as allowing our focus to be on more important concerns. We also need to live modestly, when it comes to how we take on the world in the workplace and/or when it comes to taking care of ourselves. If we take a job that according to the Qur'an, a brother should have, we create a ripple effect that is not good for the Ummah. Many men don't get married for many years because of finances. So we can, in affect, be interfering with the growth and success of Islam in ways we can't even see. It has been very hard on Muslim men to deal with their women having the attitude that they can take care of themselves. It is good for men to provide for the women in their family and to receive respect and appreciation for it. The man's nature, no matter how many try to fight it and deny it, is the hunter and provider. When women ignore bits and pieces of the Qur'an and take on roles that don't belong to them, it is like saying we don't need you, to the men. And biggest of all, it interferes with the man's duty to serve Allah (SWT) by doing these things He (SWT) has commanded. We not only have to take care to fulfill our roles, which for women is raising and running a successful Muslim household and helping other sisters do the same. We also have to make sure that we don't get in the way of the men fulfilling their roles as well as helping them do so. Of course this is just my opinion and the perception of a new Muslim, who briefly felt defensive, but quickly figured out it's not about me and if it is, it's not about Allah (SWT).

[Amira]

JAK Truth Knight,

Unfortunately it's not; Egypt is not an Islamic country anymore.

I guess the same applies to women "Maazoun"; I'm not sure how can a woman become a "Maazoun Sharei"? How can that marriage contract be valid shar3an? Aren't all these new women professions "bed3as" created by humans & have no base in Islam?

JAKK

[Ms Knight]

All what have been said here about women judges are true. According to the Maazoun thing, Maazoun is not aslan in Shar2, it is a civil job that was found to be the one who do and prepares the civil documentation of marriage - which was not there before - before they used to just celebrate the wedding cermoney and that is all, no documents, no maazoon. So I guess those who approved the women as a Maazoun, was approving only a job.
Though the Mazzoun has a spiritual nice mood in the wedding cermony, when he says some prayers and ayat for the newly married couple. Here we all like the old Maazoun style, the sheikh with his Jelbab and head cover , now the new ones in suits are not like the old ones, they give the feeling of official employee who is doing us the many documents and its registrations.

[LayDominican]

I do not understand something that was said by Amatullha. Is it true that a woman cannot touch the Holy Qu'ran but once a week? And my other question, these women judges are they making rulings based on the laws of Egypt or of the Qu'ran and can they get an exception from using the Qu'ran?

[Truth Knight]

That would be me not Amatullah. During a woman's monthly period she's not supposed to touch the Mos-haf -which is the book the Qur'an is written in- so that's about a week a month or so she's not supposed to touch the Holy Qur'an.

Initially, Egypt was a country governed by Islamic law. Then came the French occupation and changed the law to the French law, followed by the English occupation which changed that to the British law. After both France and England were evicted from Egypt, the Egyptian laws remained a mixture of both the French and British laws, and was never returned to the Islamic Shari'a, although very few laws were taken from the Holy Qur'an.

So the judge would be ruling according to the Egyptian law, which includes few Islamic laws, and that's where the argument partially stems from. The topic was about how women can be judges in a country with a government that claims to be Islamic that's all.

[The seeker]

It is true that no one can understand women .
They do not stop asking for more and more .
There somethings should be kept for each gender exclusively .

I like to add that there is a condition for a man to become a judge in islam is called al moro'ah , chivalry .

How should be this related to the topic ?
First , i did not mean that a woman's mere gender contradicts with chivlary , yet it is related .

Chivalry means that one is very well know for his righteousness and straight and fair behaviour , and someone may wonder , why is it a condition , how is it good for litigants ? ! .

Well , a man of such characters surely has an important thing ,
Respect and high regard among people .
Which is a very important requirement in this case , simply , it is more convincing for the litigants so that they can submit to his judgment with acceptance and trust in his attitude , i.e it provides general acceptance and hence in general agreement and submission .

I dont know if the idea is clear or not but let us give an example of two judges , a first who is well-respected in his community and of good behaviour , a second is known for his twisted behaviour and even back door affairs , now , which one you will trust his decision and accept his judgment ? !

I want to conclude that general acceptance among people and the public trust in the personality of the judge is a very important feature to ensure stability and steadiness of courts and law orders , otherwise , you will find many protesting voices .


Now , does a woman have such general acceptance public trust among men ? ! .
Sorry , but No .

I mean , for God sake , if one can not trust the decisions of his own wife , how can he submit to a decision of another woman ? ! .

This may appear as a strange angle to approach the topic from , but i see it is important one .

I also agree to all what has been said .

Woman is too emotional , what happens if she saw people crying with tear and weeping in the court , will she soften ? Wont that affect her judgment ?

Another point is , does not here job make here mingle between forgin men all the day ? What if she was beautifull ? !

Also , is not here husban and family have more rights in the time she spends in here job ? !

And as Amatullah said , which is a very important point , when a woman longs to share many things that men do , she is unconsciously ruining her personality and each gender's speciality .

Another point is , there is a huge difference between men work and women work ,
when a man works he does this because he has to , it is a duety for him , but when a woman works , she is only doing this to satisfy a desire or a sensation of well-being and self esteem or confident , for her , job is a luxury .

[Amira]

I mean , for God sake , if one can not trust the decisions of his own wife , how can he submit to a decision of another woman ? ! .

It seems you have a very bad idea about women here. Men don't trust their wives' decisions? Who said that? Why? We're not exactly that irrational or lack common sense you know . Sorry, Seeker, but that's shocking news to me

Ouch, that hurts.

for her , job is a luxury

Trust...oh sorry, believe me, it's not & that's not why we work

JAK

[Amatullah]

Seeker.....I don't agree on the trust. Allah has commanded women to protect and guard what belongs to her husband. Seeker, if you marry a woman who fears Allah (SWT), you won't have to worry about trust. A man leaves his most valuable treasures in the trust of a woman each day. His children, later his aging parents, his honor and his reputation. It's very clear in the Qur'an, to us women, that if we abuse that trust, we are turning our backs on what Allah (SWT) has told us is our most important contribution to our Ummah.

Like I said before, I don't think it's that a woman "can't" be a judge or do some of the other parts of our deen that Allah has called on one gender or another to do. It's that we should not. Allah knows better than we do what nourishes our spirit. We often end up lonely and things just don't feel right because even though we are working hard and giving it everything we have, we just aren't where we belong. I do agree with you on the chivalry Seeker. It's not a concept or attitude that people live by much anymore. People mostly see that world as a description of how a male treats the females in his life, but the real meaning of chivalry has been kind of lost or left behind and it is often the key to serving Allah (SWT) and for a man to still be able to serve our Ummah usefully too. Chivalry includes a grouping of virtues that people almost see as out of date. Well that's a whole new topic, I don't have the energy for right now, but the world could really use more of it. That's the whole point in wanting for our sisters and brothers the same as we want for ourselves. Jak!

[Amira]

JAK Amatullah,

I guess, by "trust" here Seeker doesn't mean that kind of trust you mentioned (related to honesty, manners...etc). Here he means "trusting a woman's opinions"; meaning that her opinions, mind & way of thinking are not good enough, reliable or trutworthy to count on from men's point of view.

Seeker, we DO have brains, & good functioning ones too

Ouch, again

JAK

[Truth Knight]

Guys, I think you're missing the Seeker's point, that's why you're hard on him. I think what he's talking about is the general conception -or misconception- that women are inferior to men. That as you know has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. It's a tradition that was -as far as we can trace- initiated by the Jews, then carried on through the Christian church, and was finally introduced to Muslims through the Western occupation in the past 3 centuries.

I guess the Seeker's point is, if men are programmed to disregard even the opinions of their own wives, how are they expected to trust another woman's? Sad but true.

But my brother you're falling in another trap. Women aren't the reason behind this. Unfortunately it's men. In our country for example, the first "women liberation" movements were initiated by Sa'ad Zagloul and Kasem Amin. They were the ones who wanted to gain points and create more compassion -and consequently votes- by introducing a new section of voters; women. That's why they -and many other westernized men- brainwashed our women's minds to riot on their men and families, and anything "traditional", as if our millinea of noble traditions are something bad. Women not walking in the streets naked, mixing with men tet-a-tet everywhere and competing with them for their jobs -to feed their families- etc... were all introduced as "good", vs. the "bad" traditions.

Unfortunately this lead to disasters -as was expected- but now is unavoidable without a radical solution. Men had to -or wanted to- give in eventually, and now we see thousands of men staying home because they can't find work, while their wives are on the street working to feed their families. The roles have been turned, and it's all part of the plan. Refer to the 1800s Protocols of Zion and you'll see it mentioned clearly and step by step in this plan of world destruction. The solution -unfortunately- is radical and very difficult. ALL women must decide to stay home one day and let their men take their jobs back. Then things will get back on track, but as you see, this isn't doable in our situation.

Bottom line, it was some men's plan and other men's fault. Women are not to be blamed for this. What are men appointed by God (SWT) to head women for? To agree on everything, be that right or wrong? We gave up our roles, so we can only blame ourselves. Not to mention that Allah (SWT) will punish us for that. We have created this mischief and we are allowing it to go on with no apparent end.

[Amira]

Sa'ad Zagloul and Kasem Amin

ALL women must decide to stay home one day and let their men take their jobs back.

Truth Knight,

[The seeker]

I guess the Seeker's point is, if men are programmed to disregard even the opinions of their own wives, how are they expected to trust another woman's? Sad but true.

thank you truthknight , God bless you man , you saved me

my dear sisters i did not mean to underestimate you .
Sister , Amira , of course you have fully functional brains , in fact i owe my intelligence - if there were any - to my mother , but it is a secret thing .

And Yes Amatullah , as Amira explained it trust word not as you thought .

My dear sisters , i was not accusing you of any sort of disregard or disability , i was trying to explain how a judge should have "a general acceptance " and " mass convincing capability " , it is just like a president or a king , many of us can be more capable ruler more than our now ones , yet it is not Only about intelligence or knowledge of islamic law , are the only requirements needed in a judge , other things are needed too , one of them - important one for me - is general acceptance and trust of the public .

Sorry sisters if my words were hurting or not well clear .

[Amira]

JAK Seeker, thank you for your concern. Offence not taken, we have broader minds than you think

Just need to tell you one last thing about that; remember to value & appreciate the mind & opinions of your future wife isA. And even if she chose to stay at home to take care of her husband & children, this doesn't mean that she's a couch there; good at nothing but cooking & cleaning. In fact, her views & opinions could be of great help to you even in your work matters. And when she obeys you, this doesn't mean at all that she doesn't have her own views & personality & cannot make her own decisions; she'll be doing that for Allah's sake & yours

JAK