Catholicism and Islam discussion between Lay Dominican & TK

[Truth Knight]

This is a one on one discussion between Lay and myself. Please guys don't participate in this discussion as Lay and I agreed to make this between ourselves to stay focused and better understand eachother's faiths, and you, the viewers, would by default understand as well.
If you want to comment on anything from either party, this topic is started for that.

Lay, please go ahead and start by defining the first topic you would want to discuss, and ask the first question.

Thanks.

[LayDominican]

My Brother TK,

I have done some reading and I find Islam a very restrictive religion. By this I mean the idea of talking on the phone between a single Islamic woman and a either single or married Christian/Islamic male. I have a rather clouded understanding of the whole social life of Islamic people. Please answer at your leisure.

[Truth Knight]

Thank you Lay. I seem to remember to have answered this question before. I'll answer it again, but it'll just be repetition I'm afraid, till you tell me which point exactly you don't understand.

The main reason behind a Muslim's actions -any action- is because Allah (SWT) has commanded us to do it. It might be a good idea to state this here, so that I wouldn't have to repeat it in every post. So the main answer to your question is: Because Allah (SWT) has commanded it.

The idea of hijab is not about veils or loose dresses. Adultery is a huge deal in every religion. And since we now have almost no restrictions about it anywhere in the world -well almost- we are facing the heat. Millions around the world don't know who their parents are, and even more think their father is someone when actually he's another. This causes humongous problems to the entire society, and leads to an infinite number of problems that cause the decay of any community, and can all be avoided by simply avoiding adultery.

And since Allah (SWT) knows that women won't be confined to their homes forever, He (SWT) set the rules for their dressing and dealing with foreign men (not their husbands, brothers, fathers, etc...)

Now we move to where Muslims get this from. Allah (SWT) says in the Holy Book:

{يٰأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَدْخُلُواْ بُيُوتَ النَّبِيِّ إِلاَّ أَن يُؤْذَنَ لَكُمْ إِلَى طَعَامٍ غَيْرَ نَاظِرِينَ إِنَاهُ وَلَـكِنْ إِذَا دُعِيتُمْ فَادْخُلُواْ فَإِذَا طَعِمْتُمْ فَانْتَشِرُواْ وَلاَ مُسْتَأْنِسِينَ لِحَدِيثٍ إِنَّ ذَلِكُمْ كَانَ يُؤْذِي النَّبِيَّ فَيَسْتَحْيِي مِنكُمْ وَاللَّهُ لاَ يَسْتَحْيِي مِنَ الْحَقِّ وَإِذَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُنَّ مَتَاعاً فَاسْأَلُوهُنَّ مِن وَرَآءِ حِجَابٍ ذلِكُمْ أَطْهَرُ لِقُلُوبِكُمْ وَقُلُوبِهِنَّ وَمَا كَانَ لَكُمْ أَن تؤْذُواْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَلاَ أَن تَنكِحُواْ أَزْوَاجَهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ أَبَداً إِن ذلِكُمْ كَانَ عِندَ اللَّهِ عَظِيماً}


Which can be translated as:

"O ye who believe! enter not the Prophet's houses― until leave is given― you for a meal (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah's sight an enormity."

Allah (SWT) also says:

"يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا"

Which can be translated as:

"O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

In addition, Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said in the authentic Hadith:

"Whenever a man and a woman meet, the devil is always their third".

And finally, the wisdom behind this. It's of course worth mentioning that these same rules are biblical. These are the laws of God (SWT) for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Allah (SWT) teaches us that the best way to stay on His straight path is to steer clear from anything that might lead to a sin. If men and women are to mingle freely without restrictions, adultery will spread, causing all the problems I listed and more. Of course we don't need to use our imagination on that one. We all live in a world where this is happening today, and we can see it unfolding before our eyes. Places where men/women separation takes place have a minimal percentage of adultery. This is practical proof that Allah (SWT) knows best.

Now all that said, let me tell you that a Muslim's life is not much different than yours. Women work in Muslim countries, they receive full education and occupy any position you can think of. We have ministers who are women, doctors, engineers, politicians, lawyers.... You name it. In fact, women get jobs much easier than men do for some reason The only difference is that in countries following the Islamic law, things are regulated. Men and women don't privately meet. A man and his wife can visit another man and his wife. That makes sense. But for a man to visit another man's wife -or vise versa- isn't just right no matter how you try to rationalize it. It's not even natural.

You need to realize that although in some cases a man wouldn't think of a woman sexually, at one point or the other they most definitely will. You also need to see that just because you don't think of a woman in a physical way, everyone else will not follow your example. In fact the majority of men everywhere in the world would think of women physically at one point or the other.

As a Christian you believe in Satan and know that the bible says he's subtle. He knows how to use moments when one is weak or not in a normal condition. A moment's weakness is all it takes, and endless disasters that destroy entire families commence. And for what? Because I want to meet a woman and chit-chat? Do you think it's worth it?

If there's something you still don't get, please feel free to come up with follow up questions on the subject.

Now on to my question. According to the Christian belief, Jesus (PBUH) is God (SWT). How does the Catholic church explain the fact that Jesus prayed to God, cried to Him and even accused God (SWT) of denying him on the cross?

Thanks.

[LayDominican]

Some very good questions, my brother. Let me take the last question first. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" At first glance at these words, it does sound as if Jesus is berating God for not coming to His rescue. But it is not Himself that Jesus is talking but those who have done evil this day. Jesus spoken these words in the language of the Hebrews so that they would know what he said. The Romans did not understand, as they spoke Latin, and not the language of the country. Another thing that must be considered here. Jesus was a perfect man. Not since the days of Adam before the fall, as the world seen such perfection. And all the pain that was racing thru his scarred body He felt it perfectly, much more than we would. As to the words many things have been said about them. But I will stick with the explaination of St. Jerome, the writer of the Latin Vulgate Bible. " He employed the beginning of the twenty-first Psalm. That clause in the middle of the verse, Look upon me, is superfluouso; the the Hebrew has only 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani', that is 'My God, My God........'It is impiety therefore to think that this Psalm was spoken in the character of David or Estther or Nardocheus, when Passages taken out of it by the Evangelist are understood of the Savior; as 'They parted my garments among them , and , They pierced my hands.

Now to your first question. Jesus was not praying to Himself. Jesus very rarely referred or used Hebrew word for God. He almost always addressed Himself to the "Father". We have here the beginning of the teachings of the Trinity. The Son (or Second Person of the Trinity) bringing joy and love to the Father. When the crowd begged of Him to teach them how to pray, Jesus responds "Our Father.....". It is a very important prayer among the Christian families. Why? Because Jesus is including us with Himself in praying to the Father. Now the Hebrews must of had prayers addressed to God. But Jesus makes God much more approachable. "Our Father..." Truly one of the most eloquant prayers uttered my human lips.

Please ask if you would like better answers to anyone of your questions.

Now a follow up question or comment. As a Christian looking in on the laws of Islam, it does not give much room for a free will. Forgive me for what I am about to say, and it is in no way a mockery of God, but it seems to me that God has taken from you your freedom of choice. Free Will is a very important concept in the Catholic Faith. That is why I have a hard time believing that God would be so narrow minded in what He will allow an Islamic person to do. While I understand what you are trying to say to me, it still does not ring true of God. For God to be merciful and just, He must allow a person the choice of a Free Will.

[Truth Knight]

Thank you Lay. Please allow me to say that I didn't understand. First, according to almost all Christian historians, Jesus spoke Hebrew, Aramaic and "most probably" he didn't speak Greek in the first place -which was the Roman's language. The Roman's also spoke Hebrew and understood it very well according to the bible. So I don't see how Jesus would be trying to direct a message or hide it from the Romans since they already understand what he's saying -as is clear from the descriptions of the scene in the gospels.

The last words for Jesus according to the bible are "Elai, Elai lama sabakhtani" -well at least one of the gospels says so. It were the Jews who killed him in the first place according to the Christian belief. The Romans were but a tool. They didn't even want anything to do with it, but the Jews persisted. Jesus was not a dramatic actor. He was a dying man. Now when you or I die, we'll hope our last words to be "Forgive me God" or something to that effect, not to accuse God of forsaking us -especially if you're that God!

In short what I'm saying is, where did Jerome get this explanation from? The scene described in the bible straight-forwardly says that Jesus was forsaken by God, and that's why he died! So where did these other explanations come from?

About the praying of Jesus, you seem to have missed the several other prayers of Jesus. When the Romans were coming for him, he prayed to God to let this cup pass away from him. When he was about to raise Lazares from the dead, he prayed God and thanked him in front of people, making sure they heard him, and delivered the message that he -Jesus- has nothing to do with the miracle, but it was from God. And so on. Jesus prayed to God all the time in the bible. So if he's God, who's he praying to?

About your question, please elaborate. How do you think God (SWT) has taken away our choice and free will? I mean what makes you say that in particular? Every Muslim has the right to choose his path, whether he adheres to all or some of God's commandments, or even to be a Muslim or not in the first place. So where does -take a way your freedom to choose- come from?

Thanks.

[LayDominican]

My Brother TK,

You have forgotten one thing about Jesus. He was from Galilee, and to most Jews, the people from Galilee are like "hillbillies". The tern Hillibillies is an American term for a group of people who live in the region of Arkansas and Georgia, Tennesse and the Southern States, especially in the mountains area in the South. The speak a language all their own. Well the Jews of Jerusalem and else where consider anyone from Galilee, a rural area, and they had their own way of talking. I cannot remember where in the Gospels it is said, but when news of Jesus claiming to be the Son of the Living God reached them, they replied "How can this be? Nothing good comes from Galilee". Now the Jews would know this Language, but not anyone else. Also, Jesus quoted the Psalm 22, and you should read the entire Psalm, for it depicts exactly what will happen to Jesus. And do not forget what some of the Gospels say are the final words of Christ: Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit"..."It is done", and with these words, Jesus, the Son of God died on the Cross.But we know that God cannot died. But Jesus the Man, can and did die. I will not question the how or why of such events. These are the events that God willed to happen. And Jesus did as the Father asked. As a Catholic, I believe in the Trinity. I understand the dual nature of Jesus, as well as I can. That Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity cannot die. And the Spirit of Jesus visited the people of the old testament who had stayed true to God, and they rejoiced. And that Jesus first sought out Adam, who was so overjoyed to see the Spirit of Jesus that he fell to his knees and gave thanks to God for freeing him from his sin. And with all the prophets and Kings and all the people of God, were allowed into heaven. That is how we Catholics understand what happen that day and why we call that day "Good Friday". Glory be to the Father,Son and the Holy Spirit Amen.

No my brother, I have not forgotten the other prayers of Jesus to God. But I said the "Our Father " prayer to be the most beautiful of the prayers of Jesus. For we all are included with just the very beginning of the most divine prayer "Our Father" Jesus began, Not My Father or My God or even Our God, but "Our Father" something that is wonderous to mediate on.

My Brother, I guess I was not thinking clearly on what your trying to explain to me. In the Catholic Faith, we too have our laws, gotten from God, and passed on to us, his children.


Can you explain the difference between the two different Islamic faiths? Of course we Catholics have two major parts of the Same Beliefs. The differences are in whom the power of the Church lies.


I await your answer and your question. You have reawaken the fire in me that had cool to a burning coal, but now is once again flaming with the fire of the Holy Spirit.

[Truth Knight]

Thanks Lay. I hope the "fire in you" would still mean we can have a "cool" conversation.

With regards to you comments, you have introduced a new piece of info to me, thank you. But I need to know your source on it.

I understand the term hillbillies and I'm familiar with the verse in the bible you mention. But what's your source on Jesus speaking in a special dialect? According to all historians and early Christianity scholars I read, Jesus spoke Aramaic as a first lanugage. Hebrew wasn't even a spoken language in Jesus' time around the areas he lived in. Greek was most probably not even spoken by Jesus. So would you please tell me what's your source on this piece of info that Jesus' words weren't understood by the Romans?

Your reply actually spurred about 10 more questions in my head. But since we agreed to go one question at the time, let me ask you this now.

When you say "Jesus was the second person in the trinity", then you say "Jesus died", and you end up with "God cannot die" -you put all three in your last post- would you be kind enough to explain to me what this is? Seriously, I don't understand a thing

Jesus is God. God cannot die. Jesus died. It's an equation I just can't comprehend. Please elaborate.

I'll also need to ask you to explain your question. I don't know what you mean by "two different Islamic faiths"! To my knowledge, there's no such thing. Would you care to name them please if they have names, or point me to where you got this info from?

Thanks.

[LayDominican]

My Brother TK,

I assure you the fire burns intensely in my soul and heart, but, as I promised I shall remain cool and friendly with you, my brother, I promise.

To answer your question about what language Jesus spoke, it is tradition that Jesus spoke the language of Galilee. Now saying that, it is understood that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic with a Galileean accent. Hence the reason why the Romans may not have understood what Jesus had said. Now this is not something that Roman Catholics must believe, as it has nothing to do with Salvation. Hence it is not recorded in the Bible, just handed down.

Now for your second question, I am going to paste something, and I hope it goes away to answering your question about the dual natures of Jesus.

The dual nature of Jesus Christ
Critics and inquirers alike often question a core tenet of Christian belief — that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. Some claim Jesus was an exceptionally gifted man but not God. Others say he was God, only appearing to be human. Some insist that Jesus was a reincarnated angel. Others claim he did not become God until his resurrection.

These and other denials of Jesus' full divinity or full humanity distort the testimony of Scripture. Moreover, they deny the basis of our salvation—that God took on human flesh to come and rescue us.

Jesus is fully God
An early Christian profession of faith exclaims that "Jesus Christ is Lord" (Romans 10:9). Here are two truths about Jesus. First, he is Christ, a title equivalent to the Hebrew term Messiah, meaning "the anointed one." By calling him Christ, early Christians acknowledged that Jesus is greater than any human being (see Mark 8:27-30) and that he is the one sent by God to rescue us.

Second, though in Jewish thought the Messiah might be a great man, Christians called Jesus "Lord" (kyrios in Greek). They used this word in their translations of the Old Testament for God's personal name (YHWH in Hebrew). Although kyrios could be used to mean master or sir, Jews and Christians refused to acknowledge the Roman emperor as "the Lord" (in an absolute sense, which is the way the emperor wanted it) because only God was "the Lord." Yet Jesus was called Lord, even the Lord.

In Philippians 2, Jesus is said to be "in very nature God" (verse 6); and is to be worshiped as Lord: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (verses 10-11). This statement paraphrases Isaiah 45:23, where God speaks of himself. God alone is to be worshiped, and when Christians call Jesus Lord, they proclaim him to be God.

The New Testament continuously insists that Jesus Christ is God:

He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

After his human birth he continued to be God. On earth, Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5-7), something only God can do. He claimed divinity (John 8:58) and thus equality with God (John 10:28-30). These claims led to charges of blasphemy (Matthew 26:63-66) and death by crucifixion.

After his resurrection, he continues to be God. Thomas called the risen Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The author of Hebrews, quoting Psalm 104, says of Jesus, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus is fully human
The New Testament also insists that Jesus is in every sense a human being, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). John wrote, "The Word became flesh" (John 1:14), and in his epistles John attacked denials of Jesus' humanity as demonic heresy (1 John 4:1-3; 2 John 7-11).

Throughout the Gospels we see Jesus operating within the confines of human flesh. He was born of a woman and grew up in a human family. He often got tired, and he hungered. At the end of his life, suffering the excruciating pain of crucifixion, he cried out in a human way, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).

That Jesus Christ is fully human is of great importance to us. This truth tells us that in order to save us, God became one of us. To do so he did not abandon his divinity (only God can save us), but he fully clothed himself with humanity.

This dual nature of our Savior continues as he intercedes for us in heaven: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Scripture thus implies that Jesus continues to be fully God and fully human—now God in glorified human flesh. Herein lies a great mystery of the Christian faith.

A great mystery and an encouraging truth
That Jesus is both God and human is a mystery beyond our limited experience. Yet no other explanation upholds all that Scripture says about Jesus Christ. Understanding this essential truth is more than an intellectual exercise. It involves appreciating the great depths of God's love for us.

Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of a woman (Matthew 1:20), was the union of God and humankind for the express purpose of providing a Savior for us (verse 21). This Savior would have a vital and unique quality—he would be Immanuel, which means "God with us" (verses 22-23). He was indeed fully God and yet in an amazing, glorious way, he was "with us" by being fully one of us.

Jesus is fully God and fully human.

Defending the truth
Down through the centuries, leaders of the Christian church have been challenged to defend the truth of Jesus' dual nature against beliefs to the contrary. Whatever the challenge, the Holy Spirit has eventually led the church back to the scriptural truth that Jesus is both fully God and fully human.

The church council that met in Chalcedon in A.D. 451 produced one of the most complete statements of this doctrine. It reads in part: "Our Lord Jesus Christ is one and the same God, perfect in divinity, and perfect in humanity, true God and true human ... Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, manifested in two natures without any confusion, change, division or separation. The union does not destroy the difference of the two natures, but on the contrary the properties of each are kept, and both are joined in one person" (Justo L. Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, volume 1, HarperSanFrancisco, 1984).

Though the statement employs language that may be unfamiliar to us, a careful reading indicates that it well summarizes the truth of Scripture on a topic of great consequence to all believers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus Christ's dual nature —fully God and fully human
Jesus Christ was sent by the Father as Jesus Christ to be God revealed in the flesh for our salvation. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, fully God and fully human, two natures in one Person. Following are Scriptures that support both his divinity and his humanity.

Fully God
Isa. 9:6; Matt. 11:27; 16:16; Mark 2:5-7; Luke 5:20-22; 9:20; John 1:1; 1:14; 2:19, 21; 3:13, 31; 5:18; 6:38; 8:58; 9: 38; 10:17; 10:30; 13:3; 14:9; 14:23; 16:15; 16:28; 17:8; 17:21-23; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 10:3-4; 15:47; 18:4-6; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17, 19; 2:9; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:2-3, 8-11; 2:7, 9, 14, 16; 13:8; 1 John 5:20; Rev. 1:8, 17; 2:8; 3:14.

Fully human
Matt. 1:1, 18-25; 4:2; 26:38; Luke 1:26-38; 9:58; 22:44; John 1:14; 11:33-35; 19:28, 34; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 15:3; Gal. 4:4; Phil. 2:5-11; 1 Tim. 2:5; 3:16; Heb. 2:14-15, 17-18; 4:15; 10:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7.

Now to my question about the two different Muslims. I will not embrass myself with trying to spell them,but the both begin with an SS and are in power in Iraq. I have also been reading the Qu'ran and I mediate upon the readings, but I have something that is puzzeling me. A few times I read that God has sent the Holy Spirit to certain people. Is the same Holy Spirit that we Catholics know? I believe it the Qu'ran, it is stated that God sent the Holy Spirit to Mary the Mother of Jesus when she agreed to be the Mother of Jesus. Could you explain?

[Truth Knight]

OMG Lay, let's not do that. Let's not paste articles if we're trying to make it a one-question-at-a-time discussion. Reading through the article I felt compelled to answer it line by line as I have a question almost about every line, and you don't want that. For example, Lord means master as well as God, so why do you take this meaning and not that. Another thing would be, what does Messiah have to do with "God"? You know the bible has hundreds of Messiahs, the Christian bible not according to the Jews, so I hope you're not saying there are hundreds of gods. Non believer kings, rabbis, messengers, pillars, pots and pans were anointed in the bible, so why is Jesus different? And Paul says Jesus was God while John hints it then 400 years later a council makes it law. So why didn't Jesus say that himself? The question list goes on, so please let's try to stay focused. Also please read the references in the article. Jesus never claimed divinity or equality with God in any of these references.

I've read through the whole post, but honestly it had nothing to do with my question. What I was saying is "You said Jesus was God, God doesn't die and Jesus died". Now we've gotten into a huge loop in this article, but it still doesn't answer me. How does this equation you put forth come to be true? Who died? Jesus? Was he God when he died, or was he human? Also, being fully God, who was God praying to?

About your question, before going forward on answering the first part let me make sure I got you right. Do you mean Sunni Muslims and Shi'a Muslims? If that's what you mean then there's no 2 Islams as you put it. There are 2 groups who agree on everything that's basic to Islam. They're mostly Muslims -which are Sunnis- and a group that on the political level defected from the rule. This is all political -though some Shi'a groups got out of Islam by contradicting verses of the Qur'an they believe in, but that's not something to consider the normal or majority of the Shia either. Let me know first if I got you right, and what exactly do you want to know about each of them.

As for the Holy Spirit, in Islam it's not part of God (SWT). The Holy Spirit is the archangel Jibreel (Gabriel). He is the chief of the angels, and is entrusted -among other things- with revelations to God's messengers (PBUT). He came to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and all other messengers of God with their revelations. He also came to Maryam (PUH) -Mary- to deliver the good news of Jesus (PBUH) to her, to tell her what to do and what to expect. He was the one that carried out the torture of Sodom and Gomorrah among other non believing nations. As you see, he has many roles. But basically he heads the angels and does what Allah (SWT) tells him to.

Waiting for your reply. Thanks.

[LayDominican]

My Brother TK

I am sorry with my C&P job. I was hoping that upon reading it, you would get a better understanding of how we Catholics look upon the dual nature of the Lord Jesus that you asked about. Please forgive me. Words do not come easy for me, and I did not want to cause you so much confusion. For now on, I will stick with my own words,humble as they are, and pray that you will understand my meanings. Again, I will stick to our arrangement. Afterall, this is a discussion and not a debate.

I am puzzled by your saying that the Holy Spirit is an Angel. And to say that Gabriel is the chief Angel runs different to what we Catholics believe. The greatest of the Arch Angels, among whom Gabriel is a member, is Michael the defender of Heaven and the Arch Angel that defeat Lucifier and the other evil angels and threw them down to earth. In the Catholic Faith there are only known three Arch Angels, each with a purpose. Michael, Raphal( the healer) and Gabrial the messanger. But, again according to the teaching of the Catholic Church and found in the Book of Revelations written by St. John, are the four Angels that are at the throne of God. No one knows their names but God. Just something that I thought you would like to know.

Now, I will attempt to answer your question in my own words and understanding. Again, please re-state any question you may have. I know this is hard to believe, but it has been the corner stone of the whole Catholic Faith.

First, to the answer who was Jesus praying to, if He indeed is God. The answer for a Catholic is easy; He was praying to the First Person of the Trinity, that is to say God the Father. In almost every prayer, Jesus begins with the name "Father". "Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass, but not my will,but Thine Will be done." It is in the Gospel of John that Jesus tells us who He really is. John 15:8-14 where, the Apostle Phillip ask Jesus to "Just show us the Father so that we will believe." And the Lord responds ".......The Father and I are One. He who sees Me, sees the Father." I do not mean to be disrespectful, but that is more than a hint.

So when Jesus is praying, He is praying to the Father, the First Person of the Holy Trinity. But we do not fall into the trap of thinking that the First is greater than the Second not the Second greater than the Third. They are all equal. This is what the Roman Catholic, in fact all Catholics believe.

Now to the death of the Lord Jesus.Both the Muslim and the Roman Catholic know that God is eternal, He has no beginning and He has no end. Jesus, who is True God and True Man, entered into this world thru the Blessed Mary, and it is her body that gave human form to Jesus. It was important that Jesus entered into the world this way, so that the world would see the gift that God was giving the world, the True Messiah. Yes there were many who claimed to be messiahs. But when the fake messiah died, so did his work. But with Jesus, the world today, over 2,000 yrs later, still hold to that belief. Jesus told Pilate that he(Pilate) did not have any power over Him unless it was given to him by His Father. No greater gift than one gives His life over so that others may live. That was what Jesus did. Willingly, He endured the agony of Good Friday. Jesus the Man died on the Cross. Not God. God cannot die, so we understand that it was Jesus the Man who was crucified, not God. And in three days after His deah, the Father raised Him from the dead, and man was freed from death.

I know this sounds so simple. It is not. It is my lack of writing that makes what I write sound like that of child. I wish I had been given the gift of writing, but it was not meant to be.

Now for my question. But first you did explain the difference. However, what drives those members of your faith to committ suicide? Why would an Ilam( pleae excuse my spelling) to make promises to these martys that are not his to make?

My brother, I await your comments. And I await your questions.

May God watch over us and give to us the love of brotherhood to us both, Amen.

[Truth Knight]

Thank you Lay. Your response was very sufficient and -if you consider it simple- then it's just what a simple-minded person like me needs. After all, the majority of humans are simple in their thinking, and God would be expected to make simple people -as well as geniuses- understand what He (SWT) is telling them.

I find a lot of points in your last post very interesting. isA I'll ask about all of them later on if you don't mind, but so as not to brake the arrangement we made I'll stick to asking one following question for now. Before that though, a comment. You said Catholics don't fall into the trap of setting importance levels for the 3 personalities of the trinity. But didn't Jesus do that already when he said things like "My Father is greater than I" and "My Father is greater than all"? In fact to my knowledge, most Catholic scholars have debated for centuries on the priorities of the three personalities, some saying they're equal, others saying they have different priorities, some saying the HS emanates from God alone, others saying it emanates from both God and Jesus and so on. It's more of a comment than a question in fact, so if you want to elaborate on it that would be very kind of you. Or if you'd like we can leave it to the end and I'll ask it again.

My next question for now is: If who died on the cross was a man, so where does salvation come from according to the Catholic Church? If I understand correctly, the Christian doctrine emphasizes that the one who died on the cross had to be both man and God for the sins of mankind to be forgiven. Just the killing of a man won't do, because no one man can carry all humans' sins, and if a man would have done, then it couldn't have been Jesus because it had to be the best man that ever existed, which -according to Jesus in the bible- is John the baptist, not Jesus. Would you be kind enough to explain that to me?

About your question, I don't understand what you mean by this phrase "what drives those members of your faith to committ suicide? Why would an Ilam( pleae excuse my spelling) to make promises to these martys that are not his to make?". Looks like I'm becoming dense these days for I find myself repeating "I don't understand" a lot. Please excuse me. I assume you mean Imam when you wrote Ilam. Imam is a Muslim leader. Muslims should obey an Imam as long as he's acting upon the word of God (SWT) and enforcing His rule.

Suicide is a huge sin in Islam. It's equivalent to murder -the biggest sin after non belief in Allah (SWT)- and many Muslim scholars equate it with non belief in Allah (SWT) because he who commits suicide has not only committed murder by killing himself, but also given up hope on God's mercy, which -according to those scholars- makes him a non believer. So no one has the right -Imam or not- to make anyone commit suicide.

So who commits suicide in Islam and which Imams give what promises? Please give an example so I can understand you better. Thanks.

[LayDominican]

My Brother TK,

I am sorry, my brother, but I can not fully answer your question, as I would have to do some more reading on the dual nature of Jesus. As to the Trinity and the Three Divine Persons, we Catholics understand that the natures of the Three Divine Persons of the Trinity are equal, with no one being greater than the next. Jesus is the first to really stress the importance of the 1st or the Father. It gives us a reference point where we can understand better the three Divine Persons. As we know God is spirit, having no gender. But Jesus does as He is in Heaven in Body and Spirit. The Holy Spirit is thought to be the breath of God, the Wisdom of God. I will attempt to look up some more information on the Trinity and see if I can attempt to make it easier to explain.

My brother, I have no question at this time. But please continue to ask me questions. I so enjoy this.

[LayDominican]

"Open your Eyes".

I just watched this, this, video that is just beyond my comprehension to understand. You put horns on Our Lord Jesus. You claim you honor and love Him, but you are beyond honor with this film. You have taken my faith and dispoiled it with this movie. How dare you. You had me performing for you with this discussion. This a fake. You questions are fake. Your mind is not open, but shut so tight no light can be seen. Red Prince you are what every American thinks of your so call Faith. I am sick to my stomach with what I saw. And the words that were spoken. You are a coward, sir, a coward. I came here out of respect of our friendship and a willingness to explain my faith to a person who has done such a film. There is no more between us. I do not wish to be on a site filled with such hate. What have I done to see my faith displayed in such a fashion. Why? Why have you done such a thing?

[Truth Knight]

Thank you Lay. I don't mind you insulting me at all. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and Prophet Isa (PBUH) never got angry when anyone insulted them, and I hope I can live up to the example they (PBUT) set for me.

Now about the film, the only point you mentioned -in the middle of all the swears- was that you had a problem with "horns put on Jesus". You missed the point apparently. What the whole thing was saying is that "THIS ISN'T JESUS". As is said in the film, if you're not worshiping God, you're worshiping the devil. That was the point being illustrated.

Now what I'll do is I'll wait for you to settle down, then if you want you can discuss the film and refute anything you like about it in its topic. That's what it's there for. Also if you'd like to continue this discussion, I'm here waiting for you to read more and answer my question. If not, as you wish.

Peace.

[LayDominican]

TK, My Brother

You have to understand, that upon seeing that movie, I felt betrayed. We have been calling one another brother and I enjoyed writing to you and I have enjoyed our discussion. But when I saw that movie, TK, my wife asked me if I was ill as the blood left my face. I was shocked. And I know now who I am up against. You are not looking for answers, as much as validation to what you believe. I thought we were trading points of view. Now I do not know if I can be so open.

Yes I will continue the discussion. I will do the best that I can. But you are wrong when you say that Jesus never lost his temper. He chased the money changers and others out of the Temple, His Father's House. Do you really think that Jesus would be happy with that video of Him? If you do, then I must say you know Him not.